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An Interview with Bo Gritz

Conducted by David Neiwert

Phone Interview, Nov. 10, 1994

Note: For basic information on Bo Gritz, see "Patriot" Profile #2.


First of all, I'm not a member of the unorganized militia, but I think I understand a little bit about it, and I understand why it is occurring. I think I have had a couple the people -- for example, Trochmann, from Montana, and I've had that Baptist preacher who heads the Michigan militia -- on my radio program. I've talked to them.

There's a thing I've got here from Morris Dees. He's the chief trial counsel for the Southern Poverty Law Center that is shrieking to Janet Reno about how these militias are white supremacist-oriented, anti-Semitic. He includes a list of militias from California, Colorado, Montana, Idaho, Washington, Michigan, Wisconsin, Texas, Florida, Pennsylvania ... and says that these are based on Klanwatch Task Force.

I've found that most of the organizations like this, and that would include the Klanwatch, Coalition for Human Dignity, the Coalition Against Malicious Harassment -- that most of them will take almost any theme that would act as a buff in order to polish their own image, and they attempt that on this militia issue. The reason I say that is while I'm not a member of any of these organizations, I notice what they've been doing to me, and they don't do their homework. They have zero knowledge of what they're talking about.

For example, there's this letter written by Morris Dees to Janet Reno. It says, ``Our office has confirmed the active involvement of a number of well-known white supremacists, Posse Comitatus, Identity Christians and other extremist leaders in groups in the growing militia movement. Those individuals involved include Louis Beam, once on the FBI's most-wanted list, and now an Aryan Nation leader; James Wickstrom, a Posse Comitatus leader, convicted of conspiracy to pass counterfeit bills to fund a guerrilla army; and James ``Bo'' Gritz, a notorious anti-Semite who has been closely associated with David Duke and other white racist leaders.

They're full of shit. I for one do not have any activities with the militia. I wouldn't know Louis Beam if I were to bump into him on the street, or James Wickstrom. I abhor the Aryan Nations as far as they would hate any American. I support the Constitutional, Posse Comitatus principle, which says that you do not use the military to enforce civil law. I really don't know what these guys are talking about as far as any militia Posse Comitatus. They're full of crap when they say I'm a notorious anti-Semite. I'm finally fed up with it. I'm going to get a lawyer and I'm going to have fun attacking these people that should be held responsible for libel and slander.

As a soldier, I have never had any generic tendencies to label Americans as good or bad. I've served with black, white, yellow, brown, red; all religions; nobody ever asked you about your religion, your blood bleeds red the same as everyone else. I've had Gary Goldman as a member of my closest team for 15 years; Goldman, obviously, is Jewish. And I'm sick and tired of it.

But what I do find is because my name has some national recognition, people like Morris Dees, who probably wouldn't qualify as a pimple on a militiaman's ass, will make such statements as touting me, along with the FBI's most-wanted Aryan Nations, Posse Comitatus, whatever that is, guerrilla army, passing counterfeit bills, he mentions me. ``A notorious anti-Semite.'' Where's he getting this crap? And my ``close association with David Duke''? I was on the ballot in 1988 out of Cincinnati, Ohio, for the Populist Party as a vice-presidential candidate, before they ever selected their president. The only reason I agreed to be on the ballot was that Tim Traficant, a conservative and still-sitting congressional representative from Cincinnati was going to be that choice. They offered up Traficant, and some nut from Texas got up and rejected it. Everybody got on the bandwagon for David Duke. When Duke was put on the ballot as president, I didn't really know Duke at that time, I was a soldier. But it took me about a week to find out who he was, and I rejected it. I would not vote, I cannot support for anybody who has got so much cowardice as to hide behind a sheet for any reason.

And yet I'm listed as closely associated with David Duke ``and other white racist leaders.'' Like who? And so it shows me that these groups like Morris Dees' and these other coalitions, they're small squeaky wheels, they do anything to try to buff their image.

But since you ask about the militia... There's another person, Abraham Foxman, head of the ADL, and I received a copy of his news release, which was mailed to all news media nationwide, and also stated at about the same time ... Foxman says the same thing. He sees the militia as being inhabited by white supremacists and anti-Semites. I don't believe that's true. Now again, I'm not part of a militia, but it's the blind man feeling the elephant. Maybe Foxman communicated with this anal orifice out of Montgomery, Alabama -- that's where Morris Dees comes from -- and between the two of them, they got some kind of paranoia that says the militias are full of white supremacists.

I think the militia movement is a symptom of what just happened on Nov. 8, when Americans rejected the move toward socialism, the move toward liberalism, the move toward an amoral society. I think that -- matter of fact, in the newspapers, it says, quote, `America has signaled that it wants to return to traditional morals and values' -- I'm reading out of today's USA Today -- `They want to have a hard-line approach to crime and welfare, they want more personal freedom, they want a smaller government.' I think the militias, before we voted, were an expression, a manifestation kind of like the hives: something is going on in the body politic of America which finally had to come to the surface.

One is, the militias are legal. U.S. Code 10, and U.S. Code 32, regardless of what the NRA says, or what Butch Reno says, U.S. Code 10 and 32 specify allowances for the unorganized militia. They are constitutional, they are legal. Personally, if the nation, if the feds were to follow its own laws, where they didn't act like Gestapo and KGB, ala Weaver and Waco, then we wouldn't need militias.

And we didn't have them before -- unorganized militias. But with Clinton's tilt toward globalism where you got the National Guard going over to Kazhikistan and the Ukraine, and they're coming over here in this `Hands Across the Sea' -- you know, we train -- the FBI sends its hindquarters to Moscow, and I think the KGB has always been in America in the guise of the IRS.

But you are seeing America's hives in reaction to it. Now we've got the Republicans -- I think after the eighth, after Tuesday, America has the best chance we've had in my lifetime, and that is you've got a Republican Congress, for the first time in almost 50 years, and we've got a Democrat for a president, which means that -- and this is very different, because, you see, when we had a Republican for a president, if we had a Republican Congress like when George Bush was in, then you'd have to support him and his policies no matter if they were globalist, where we're going to become USA Inc. with Hillary as chairman of the board, or something -- now you've got a Republican Congress with a Democratic president, there's no special loyalty, if it's not in the interest of America, they can vote it down. It's a wonderful opportunity.

But what I see is, every time you have a birth, anytime you have a metamorphosis, anytime you have a -- oh, like the Bible says, be transformed, a transfiguration -- you have a struggle. Before the caterpillar can become the butterfly, there has to be this struggle. Before the babe is born, there is this struggle. In America, we are struggling to resurface. And I don't know whether we're going to change from a butterfly back into a coccoon, or whether we're going to get out of our cocoon and become something beautiful. I think the next couple of years will tell.

I personally support the militias. It is their Second Amendment right. The only thing I'm really worried about now is the Supreme Court. As an example, the Supreme Court ruled, using a 1705 British Court as a precedent, they said -- and before, a conspiracy had to have some kind of a physical action toward accomplishment of something considered to be a crime -- as of this week, the Supreme Court ruled and wrote using a precedent from 1705 saying that just the assembly represented the overt action where you could be charged. And now, of course, that means your personal property can be taken away, confiscated by the government, and you can be accused and then jailed for conspiracy. In 1705 -- my God, we fought a revolution to get away, to have a freedom in the First Amendment of speech, and press, and religion, and assembly. So when I see what the Supreme Court is doing, while I think the Founders had it in mind that we have a President of one party and a Congress of another -- that is a good balance right there -- and when I look at what the Supreme Court's doing, they're trying to take us back to where we were before American independence. So now what's going to happen with them? So I'm a little bit concerned.

But at least we have someone now in the succession of the presidency, Newt Gingrich, unlike Alexander Haig, who thought he was Number 2 or Number 3, now we have a Speaker of the House that would be different. I'm glad to see Foley out. I'm glad to see that Ollie North lost; he's a liar. He took the same oath I did. Even though Robb is amoral, apparently, or at least he's made some terrible indiscretions, at least we don't think that Robb is an out-and-out liar before God, in violation of an oath to defend the Constitution. So a lot of good things happened Tuesday.

You don't have to be a participant in SPIKE in order to move into a covenant community. The reason I think we're catching so much flack, uh, when I was up there with Randy Weaver and did something that I don't -- you name another civilian that has done this -- broke a police line by the FBI hostage rescue team, and walked up there and got that family out of trouble. Now, that is a newsworthy event, I believe, even though I don't give a shit about it, the fact is, it's newsworthy. Not a single thing was ever said or done. It was just as if -- Randy Weaver was acquitted, exonerated, and that is newsworthy. Here you got a guy accused of murder, they shot his wife in the face, they shot his son in the back, and now he is exonerated, and Kevin Harris is turned loose completely. And nothing is mentioned.

And now they're going to do a movie. The movie is going to be run by New Line Cinema. And there's a guy with the Boston Herald who wrote a story -- the only positive story, I guess, that was written about the Weaver thing -- and he fleshed it out into a novel, and just dumped it into the publishers' pool, and by God, New Line Cinema pulled it out, and said, hey, this is terrific. But the movie is going to be about a retired negotiator who is recalled to settle a problem with an outrageous neo-Nazi locked in a cabin with a woman and her children. So obviously it is going to be very pro-government, so here we go with Hollyweird. So there is no justice until the damned judges stop wearing black. And I guess when Christ the Messiah comes, maybe we'll see justice then.

But you don't have to be a SPIKEr to be up there in Idaho. The reason, as I was saying, that we were catching all the flak -- if this concept of covenant communities catches on -- you can have a covenant community in a borough of New York, where people basically get to know each other, they know that they're not going to stand for any criminal activity on anyone's part, and they'll stand in defense of their neighbors, you couldn't have abuses by the government, you couldn't have abuses by criminals and hooligans and robbers and thieves. So that's what we're doing.

The SPIKE training came about in 1992 -- actually, the first class was conducted in January 1993. When I finished the presidential campaign, I traveled to 49 states, and people throughout this population had continually said, Bo, we don't think you can beat the Republicrats, what do we do? We gotta do more than just talk, we gotta do more than just vote.

Well, I catch just one rabbit at a time. So I thought, in my own mind, what I'm gonna do is, I'm gonna write a book called, `S.' `S' is the designator for Special Forces once you're qualified. And in that book I would give any who read it all of the knowledge that they would need to become like Special Forces where, basically, you could live anywhere at any time under any conditions, and feel safe. So that was my idea.

Then, as I finished the campaign, people said, Bo what are we going to do? What to we do now? And there was an immediate requirement -- it would have taken me a year to punch this book out. So I pulled my team in, Gary Goldman, and Scott Weekly, a Navy SEAL who's a real-life Macgyver, and some other people, and I said in the interim, what I'll do is I'll start training them to be self-reliant, to be secure, and so my promise to them is: You, at the finish of SPIKE, which will be in the winter of 1995 -- we will have finished 10 phases; we're into Phase 7 right now, started in Portland this week, this last week for example, and Saturday, we'll be in L.A. -- we go to 10 cities.

It's unique, because my training team goes across the United States, where people then can come more conveniently to attend SPIKE training, rather than having us put the training on in just one location -- it'd be really nice for us, but it means that people would have to pay a lot in order to travel, and they'd have to stay in motels and provide for themselves. So it's unique; it's the mobile training-team concept that Special Forces does best overseas. Well, we're doing it right here in America for the first time, I believe.

My promise is, if you stick with us, you're going to be as prepared and you can be as equipped and as organized as Delta Force. And it's a promise I'm going to keep, because I'm going to keep the Delta Force curriculum, which I helped make up, and we are completing every requirement.

Now, there is a difference. For example, in Phase 7, which is what we're doing now, there are in each phase there are four parts of education that go on. And one of these four parts in Phase 7 is stick-fighting. Rather than teaching people how to take the esophagus out of an opponent, the way that Special Forces and Delta is taught, we are teaching people how to repair esophaguses if they are accidentally or inadvertently extracted, and we're teaching people rather than using violent attack, assault methods, we're teaching them defense. For example, every one of the SPIKE phases has had a self-defense side. We've taught basic self-defense -- how to use pepper gas, how to use coup batons, how to use things for self-defense against opponents. In Phase 2, we taught how to defend yourself against edged weapons. Not by using edged weapons, but by using things like a cane, or your unarmed combat. In Phase 3, we taught how to defend yourself against armed assailants that have guns when you don't.

Now, in Phase 7, we're teaching people how to use a cane, or a crutch, a broom, a mop, or a stick in self-defense; it's called stick-fighting. So our SPIKE training consists usually of a self-defense class; it consists of an emergency medicine class; we've taught people, for example, in Phase 4, how to give birth in the home without the help of the AMA and Caesaerianism and all of the drugs. It's working. People all over the country now are having kids in their home. They report to me all the time. It's a little bit scary, but so far so good. Dads are with their moms the way they're supposed to be at the time of Mom's greatest need. Plus I think it provides a bonding you're not gonna get anyplace else, and the feeling of shared responsibility there.

We are teaching dentistry, for example, in Phase 8. You gotta be able to take care of your teeth and your kids' teeth in event of the worst. Otherwise, it can kill you. We taught them in Phase Two, for example, how to suture, and how to debleed, in case you have dead flesh that can cause gangrene. So we always have a medical phase along with a self-defense phase, and then we have two specialized subjects.

Those specialized subjects -- for example, in Phase 9, one of them will be counter-terrorist driving. You would pay $2,500 to go to Bandarant's School of Driving, and yet it's one of just four things you'll be doing in SPIKE training when we reach Phase 9. To teach people, one, it makes them a hell of a lot better driver, and secondly, I think it gives them a lot of confidence to know how to use a vehicle as well as Delta Force that are assigned to protect ambassadors and other officials in the government.

So while it appears to a Waxman or a Dees, this would all appear to be very provocative, very aggressive, it's all defensive. And none of it is against the law. Otherwise, Butch Reno would be hammering on my head, I am sure, as I've hammered on her a lot. What we're doing, I'm very careful to make sure that we're within the law.

These militias, what they should be doing -- because I'm a professional trainer; if you've read my efficiency reports, they cite where I probably am one of the best training concepts people in the Army. That's what I do best. So I have made up a literal curriculum in ten phases; that's what the militias should be developing.

The militias get in trouble. Like in Pulaski, Virginia. You've got some guy who's a mechanic. He feels desperate, they want to form a militia. They put together some civilians, but all they've ever seen is ``Rambo'' movies. And the next thing you know, they're out there in the weeds, dressed like Rambo, with illegal weapons. They've converted things to machine guns, through Paladin Press, they've got homemade silencers. This is stupid. It's dumb.

This Pulaski mechanic should've contacted Bo Gritz, and said, Bo, we want to be prepared. We want to have a militia. We want to keep the sovereignty of our individuals and our state assured. And he could have followed my 10 phases, I'd have been more than happy to share it with him, and then they would have done it legally, lawfully, and safely, rather than just stupid guys running around with machine guns with silencers.

So while Waxman is right, and Dees is right in saying, it's only in the second-oldest profession in the world that the amateurs think they're as good as the professionals, watch out. The Waxmans and the Deeses are wrong in assuming that the manifestations of militia only represent the white supremacists -- I had a rabbi on my radio program twice; Yakov Spivak, a rabbi from New York City, and he is outraged at the attempts by the government to disarm America. He agrees that the Jews -- yesterday we celebrated the 56-year anniversary of Kristallnacht, where the Germans started burning synagogues and started breaking into Jewish homes -- if the Jews would have been armed, that would not have happened. They would not have been collected together like cattle. They could have stood their defense, and who knows what would have happened? But they were completely disarmed.

And certainly, the Jews are concerned, and they should be, about what their security is. It's not just white supremacists. But I imagine there are KKK; I imagine there are white -- whatever you would call them, supremacists, separatists -- that would join a militia. I think you're going to find them standing side-by-side beside black men, red men and women, Orientals that have come to America, Spanish-Americans, you're going to find all of them -- Catholics, Buddhists -- you're going to find Americans. That's a mixed family standing together in the militia.

So I support the militia, because it is an outward manifestation of an inward frustration. I do not support vigilantism. You will never see me ever -- and I have told people this time and again -- leading an attack on any government facility. I'm no John Brown gonna march in and take over an armory, we're not gonna shoot judges. Now that's me. And if I saw anyone doing this, placing other Americans in any kind of jeopardy, then I would fight against those lawless forces.

But it is a right of an American to protect their person and their property and their family. And so I stand in the righteous defense of every American who would do that.

Now in Revelations 13, there is a verse that says, Live by the sword, die by the sword; this is the patience of the saints. For that reason, we are forming covenant communities. We are going to defend our rights to remain free as Americans, regardless of what Hillary and her vegetable do in Washington District of Criminals.

We will not hate; we haven't got any time for that. We don't fear anyone as far as I know. There may be those that do, but I don't. We are going to form our covenant communities, we are not going to hate, we are not going to attack, but we're going to be prepared if we have to, to defend against predators, whether they be wearing German-style helmets carrying MP-5 German machine guns with SS -- now the Dallas street police are wearing SS on their uniforms, for God sakes -- or whether they be hoodlums, any kind of predator will be rejected from the covenant community.

And yet we're going to police these covenant communities -- I won't be doing it, but there will be a 13-person committee in each community that I have anything to do with forming, and so far we're looking at forming three of them up in Idaho, in the Kamiah area; we've got two of them open and we're going to open another -- and there will be 13 persons so we'll always have odd man out, there won't be any tie votes -- a 13-person committee in each community that will determine if a person is suitable or unsuitable in accordance with their covenant. The only covenant is that they be willing to stand in the defense of the lawful and rightful, the rights of others and their neighbors.

We cannot have a Hole-in-the-Wall Gang, where somebody goes down and steals hubcaps in Kamiah, and rushes back up and gets in the inner circle of the covenant community. The provision for this, is that person, if they are determined to be a criminal element, or they are determined to be unacceptable by the covenant community, then that 13-person committee will be able to determine that; we will pay them the equity on their land, them for any construction or any improvements on their land, and they will be disinvited, and then that land and improvements will be sold to somebody else. So there's not a hole-in-the-wall gang; there's probably a better way to run it, but you're not gonna drink Kool-Aid up there, and if you want to go to church, you gotta go to your own church. But you're going to have the right to home-school your children, regardless of what the Senate decides with the United Nations.

And you're going to have the right to use alternative medicine, regardless of what Hillary decides with the health club business. And you're going to have your rights as an American, that's all.

What do Americans need that level of preparedness for?

In general, generically speaking, when 911 cannot or will not respond, you have a responsibility to care for yourself and your family and others who may depend upon you. And there are legion of examples: We've got Hugo and Andrew that ravaged Florida and some of the surrounding states. Don't call 911; there's nobody gonna answer the phone. We've got the Midwest that was totally flooded out last year, and now we've seen the same thing happen in Texas, and Georgia and Louisiana. We had the mother of all storms rage through the East Coast last year. Don't call 911; they can't get to you. They could respond, but they won't, they can't.

And when you look at the earthquake in L.A.; I mean, people didn't even have a flashlight, they didn't have a radio with a battery in it. All of the telephones and all of the communication were out. They didn't whether they were under enemy attack, or whether it was just the Big One. And don't call 911 because, one, you can't get them on the phone, and secondly, they're busy. During the riots, you don't do that.

I was up at Yakima area during the Mount St. Helens explosion -- we were testing weapons up there -- and I'm here to tell you, 911 ain't gonna help you during these catastrophic events or under these social upheavals. So what we're training people to do is, like Special Forces, like Delta Force, any eventuality -- when I first joined Special Forces, we had a motto: ``Triple A Bar Nothing,'' which meant Anything, Anytime, Anywhere, Bar Nothing. We were trained so that if you were in a nuclear attack, where there was absolute chaos and havoc, you set up a triage: those you can't save, you allow to die; those that are minor wounded, you take care of them later; we were trained to save our own people under traumatic conditions.

We were trained to -- it's not survival, it's preparedness. There's a difference, I believe, while the word is often interchanged by people who don't fully appreciate the meanings. Preparedness means an ark in a time of Noah, and that's what I think the covenant communities and SPIKE training provide. Survival means try to take the high ground and hang in there until the water is up to your nose, and then grab onto something floating by -- that's survival.

Preparedness means that you have already taken the measures to meet the adversities and to provide for yourself, your family, your neighborhood, your church group. I'm training not individuals, I'm training trainers. It's like lighting one candle. What we teach in SPIKE, we ask people, I exhort them, we make videos available to them, so that they can take that training, and go out and light as many other fires as they can. So I can touch about 3,000 people across the United States.

And at the end of Phase 8, they will be awarded -- they won't buy it, the only way you can get it is to have completed those phases -- but by the end of Phase 8, they will have completed Special Forces training, and I will give them a green beret. And when they finish Phase 9, I will give them a flash, just like in Special Forces, once you get your green beret, you've got to have further qualifications before you become, quote, fully qualified. Once they have finished Phase 10, the people who have -- there won't be that many probably -- they will receive a set of crossed arrows, which is recognition, that's the Special Forces emblem.

These people could be called upon, I believe, under the most diverse of conditions to respond, if they have the equipment, so we make all the equipment available to them at below-wholesale cost ... so they could have the equipment, they have the ability, they could respond if they will, and more, prayerfully, they will have trained their families, their friends, their church groups, their neighborhoods, communities, in the same thing. A lot of our SPIKErs are attached to FEMA, a lot of them are attached to volunteer fire departments, to EMT organizations where they're out there serving the public already. And this is a way to keep your skills sharp.

Do you see the floodwaters rising?

Of course. I'm not a prophet. I wish I had the eyes of Elijah, that I could see the angels and chariots of fire. I even wish I had the message of Gideon. I've never asked God, prove to me God, by turning the floor wet when everything else is dry, or vice versa, that I have a message, that I am the Gideon of the 20th Century. That's never happened to me.

But when I read Revelations 13, I only have to read one page. And it tells me there will be global government. It tells me there will be a world religion. It tells me there will be an economic system that has no cash, but rather you have to have a mark or a name or a number. And when I take that -- it's like Rabbi Spivak said the other day -- he started out a program I did with him by saying, If you read the New York Times, you are reading the Bible. You are reading prophecy fulfilled. Because today, like at no other time, we have a global government. Consciously. Before us. Overtly. We are moving rapidly toward this unification of a one-government system.

And everywhere you see the banks, you see Petey Wilson here in California, you see the computer technology is there, the GATT is there, we're moving toward a global economic system that will probably, to win the war on crime and drugs, will do away with cash, if you can call Federal Reserve notes that, and other currencies of other nations the same -- it will probably go to an electronic system. Everybody's trying to push you that way.

I think you'll have to have a name, number to be able to transact. And you can see we have a movement. We already have a state religion. I quit the Mormon Church in March. I wrote a letter to Salt Lake City, expressing my disdain and my amazement for a church that, when we joined it, we found a refuge, we found love, we found spirituality, we found discipline. Living the Scriptures, instead of just talking about it on Sundays and Wednesday night prayer meeting. Yet today I see the Mormon leadership having turned over God's church to government. Because you cannot be married unless you have a Social Security number and a license. You cannot be baptized if there is any IRS action against you. I don't know where the IRS fits into the equation of salvation. You cannot serve a church mission unless you've filled out a 1040 form. It just goes on and on. The officials in Southern California are telling members of the LDS Church that the New World Order is of Jesus Christ, and we want no contention on that matter. Everywhere you look, the LDS Church, which is in the black -- the Catholic Church is in the red -- the Mormons own billions of dollars of property, they've been very good in their business sense. But these bean counters stand to lose today these assets unless they toady up to the government. And so I am disgusted with it. So I told them in my letter that until I saw evidence that God had been reinstated in a church that is now run by government, I didn't want to be part of a corporate church. I want to be part of a spiritual church.

I just think it's a sign of the times. Matter of fact, a previous prophet said, predicted a time when the church would be rent asunder, and there would be this sifting. I'm looking for spiritualism in a church.

But we have a state religion today. The state religion is atheism. The state religion is pro-abortion. The state religion is everything that Christianity and Islam and Judaism are against. So I don't think there's any question we're supposed to have a separation between church and state. And we don't. We now have government fully taking over corporate churches all over America, and probably the world.

So yes, I see this tide certainly rising, and I think the high ground is in Idaho. But that's me. What I've done is a very careful study. I did not make my choice of Idaho based on any single reason. First of all, I wanted to know the area that had a climate where you could grow crops assured every year. You cannot do that in St. Anthony in eastern Idaho. You can't do that in Boise, you can't do that in Coeur d'Alene. But where the Nez Perce used to winter over, that little banana belt, that little, tiny belt where Chief Joseph said, From where the sun stands today I will fight no more forever,' that area is a mild climate.

The press didn't believe me. We were up there two weeks ago Saturday, it was pouring down rain, it was horrible, it was ugly, at the Clearwater River at Kamiah. We drove up through the clouds, popped out, and there, and I said, now do you see why we call this almost heaven? Because below us was brilliant clouds illuminated by clear sky and a bright sun and a warm environment. That's the first criteria.

Secondly, you've got to have soil that will support that kind of growth. That is all volcanic soil almost all over Idaho and it will grow anything.

Third is water. I've had a geologist check this thing, a geologist at BYU, a good friend of mine, and he has assured me that Idaho has an aquifer under it the size of probably nothing else in the United States, not even Minnesota, with its 10,000 lakes, can equal.

The next reason is, I looked for things like floods and earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes. And you don't find them. This area up here is devoid. I looked for targets, like military targets, that might later be a problem. The nuclear facilities, the power plants, et cetera. There are none of them up there.

The only thing that could possibly jeopardize Kamiah and that area up there is Mount Hood. St. Helens was just up the street, but you've got Rainier, and they've got Hood, and they've got Shasta. All of these are volcanic, and if it lit up, we'd be downrange.

And then look at it from a social point of view. Idaho County is the third-largest county in America. It's the largest county in Idaho. There's one stop light, and it doesn't work all the time. Long before I got there, people had already wrested government back from the bureaucrats. For example, there's no building codes in Idaho County. You're not paying all of these fees. The people have done a damned good job of taking the government back.

So when you look at it from literally every aspect, from political, social, from a natural phenomenon point of view, climate, the physiology, the demography, of all places in America, every place from Florida to Maine to Washington to San Diego, California, the best place is Kamiah. That's my conclusion, that's why I'm out there.

What about the belief that there are troops massing on the border? Do you believe that too?

Well, to me, that is patriot paranoia. I'm an intelligence operative. Not anymore for the government, but I was up until 1987. I've been in intelligence all throughout my career, but not a staff officer. I've been an intelligence commander, where I've been required to go out and get intelligence.

It started off by an LDS regional representative, covering many states in the South. It started off in 1990 with a report that there were Koreans in tanks massed at Nogales, Mexico, and at Juarez. That they were going to come sweeping across the borders and attack Arizona.

Now, there is an organization, and here's where I think a lot of the one-tenth truth is to be found. There's an organization called STAG; STAG stands for Strategic Tactical Analysis Group. It is out of Maryland. They tried to assign me there one time. Now STAG is an offshoot of the Army general staff operations, DESOPS they call it, deputy chief of staff for operations. STAG is one of those little slave organizations where they never know, they go to work before the sun comes up, and before they are released the sun's down, they don't know if the sun shone or not that day. They slave for the generals in the Pentagon. It's at Bethesda.

What they do there is they work on every conceivable possibility. I know what happened. Some little guy, some young officer or enlisted man working at STAG, went home to Arizona for Christmas or so. And they're sitting there talking, and somebody says, you know, I'm worried about the Russians. And this little guy probably says, You oughta know what we're working on for the Pentagon. We now are working on a scenario where there are 5,000 Korean tanks in Mexico that are gonna charge across the border.

Now, you see, this little kid may have put input for something, but doesn't know what's going on. It is one of the jillions of possibilities that the Pentagon does every day. It has nothing to do with reality.

You get a lot of people like Linda Thompson. Linda Thompson made a statement, I was right there when she did it, that said there were like 50,000 or 80,000 Chinese in Montana. Now when I was at Weaver's, in Idaho up north, they said there 30,000 Cambodians, U.N. Cambodians wearing blue helmets that were charging toward Weaver's. I sent Jerry Gillespie to go find them. And he did. He went into Montana, and he came back and said, I found them, Bo. There are thousands of Orientals -- they're not wearing blue helmets, they're not Cambodians -- from New York, they're from San Francisco, they're from L.A., they're all up here picking mushrooms as the forest fires had ravaged Montana, as they do every summer, and that was August that we were up there -- the mushrooms pop up everywhere. And all the Oriental grocery representatives flood the area with Orientals to pluck these damned mushrooms. So this is where these kind of rumors come from.

Stalin said it best. He said, We will not ever have to attack America. America will fall inwardly in two generations like an overripe piece of fruit. I wish there were 5,000 North Korean tanks; I wish that there were 80,000 Chinese. Linda Thompson said that there were U.N. tanks and APCs rumbling down the streets of Portland, Ore. Horseshit. I wish this were true because it would galvanize Americans against globalism just like it galvanized the Vietnamese when we went to Vietnam.

But that's not how it's going to happen. You're going to find this subtle, velvet hammer approach where they're going to make it look like it's all wonderful and then they just steal your birthright. One day you wake up and it's USA Inc. And that's what I'm fighting against.

You said earlier that you agree with the ideas of the Constitutionalists.

Of course, I am a con -- my plank, I had one plank in my platform, and that was that that you would restore, revive, the U.S. Constitution. I certainly agree. And my point -- let me clear about it -- is that I support the unorganized militia. But I see a potential for great failings, because, being unorganized, they don't have the availability of professionals to help them in direction. Training; what should they be doing? Unless all of them want to run out there and act like Rambo, and again, it's the amateurs trying to play like professionals.

So I don't care what they do. I would hope the militias would stay lawful. And legal. Otherwise, I will be against them. But the unorganized militias certainly have a role. The president has federalized all of the militia. The organized militia, the National Guard, they no longer belong to the governor of the state. Now most of the Guard, I mean all of it, belongs to the president. And he acts like it. They don't get a chance to stay home much, it doesn't seem like.

So the old saying, the National Guard's awake, you can sleep tight tonight, is wrong. The National Guard's gone. Now we've got this cooperation spirit between the emerging democracies, the former Soviet Union, and we're going to be trading our Guard for their Internal Security forces. And that bothers me.

So there's a need for an unorganized militia, but it needs to be organized. And properly directed, and led, and trained. And that's what they're suffering from. Because it's a bunch of amateurs.

I don't know Trochmann, but I've had him on the radio program, and I read -- some dude in New York City said that Trochmann was a white supremacist, that Trochmann was preparing -- didn't think if you weren't white that you had a soul, and that Trochmann was preparing to destroy families who were not white.

Well, I called Trochmann. Because I've been interested in this, and I've been telling people, encouraging them to get ahold of Trochmann and this guy, this Baptist preacher in Michigan, to gain, if they wanted information, it seemed like these guys were the most prepared, to call him and get ahold of it. And all of a sudden I read this garbage, and I called this guy from New York, and I wanted him on the radio program. I wanted them -- not together, I was gonna have them separately so they wouldn't feel embarrassed and they'd each be able to make their point.

Trochmann was willing to come on, he said it was absolute hogwash. He was not a white supremacist, he had no feelings that that guy had written, that if you weren't white, you didn't have a soul, et cetera. I called the guy up in New York, he said he was ready to go on the radio, and then the morning of, he canceled and said he felt uncomfortable. He said, well, I'll come on tomorrow. The next day he canceled. The guy is a coward.

I called Mozzochi from the Coalition For Human Dignity. He won't go on the radio. I've called the ADL. They won't go on the radio. I called the Malicious Harassment, the Wassmuth guy. He won't go on the radio. These people write news releases, and for some damned reason, the newspapers print it. But they will not go on where they have to articulate or in any way defend their stance.

I think it's libelous, I think it's slanderous, and I'm looking forward to collecting from some of them.

What about the belief of Constitutionalists that blacks are not ``organic citizens''?

What I think they're saying is, it's like Washington, it's partially accurate. Number One, we did not have 14th Amendment citizens until the war. The Civil War was fought -- and when I look at the ... uh, who is this asshole, the black guy that gets on television, I can't believe the media will have him on there, saying I want to be around when the last white man is killed in America.


I mean, you talk about, Americans to me are a family. And I'm your brother. I don't care what color or creed you are, if you're an American, you can count on me, even though you don't want me.

But when you look at the Civil War, the only citizens at that time -- they did not include blacks. Now apparently, there was some question about Indians. You could be Oriental, you could be Hispanic and be an American citizen of the United States. But if you were black, if you were a slave, you could not.

Now they passed the 13th Amendment, which said no more slavery. And hallelujah, everybody fought that. You gotta remember, it's kind of interesting -- the 11 Southern states were under martial law at the time that these two Amendments were passed, so they did not have representatives in the Legislature, they had military tribunals that rubber-stamped 11 yeses to whatever the federal government wanted to do in Washington, D.C.

But I think everyone would agree: Get rid of slavery. Good. The 13th Amendment's passed. Then what they did is, they made a 14th Amendment that not only offered federal citizenship to the slaves -- because that specifically is what it is designed for, not yellow, brown, red, white, it's designed for slaves, black slaves in America, to offer them federal citizenship, not state citizenship. Because it's been proven that you do not have to be a federal citizen to be citizen of the state. And before the 14th Amendment, there weren't any federal citizens. There were only citizens of the republic of California, of the commonwealth of New Jersey or Virginia, these kinds of things.

The 14th Amendment, if you will look at it carefully, what it did, it offered federal citizenship to the blacks and everyone else. Now many people -- 99 and 44-100ths percent of the population today, including these, whatever you want to call it, these Posse Comitatus or militia believers, they are federal citizens. And they are in the same category.

And so it is true -- you have to look and see whether something is accurate or not, not whether you agree with it -- and it is accurate to say that before the 14th Amendment, post-Civil War, that there was no citizenship for slaves, that after the 14th Amendment they were offered federal citizenship, along with everybody else. And that almost everybody, except those that have rejected federal citizenship, are today federal citizens under the 14th Amendment, including all these people that hollering and screaming and yelling.

If you got a Social Security number, you are a federal citizen. You are not a state citizen. And I think if you want a contemporary quote, when the Rodney King beating officer trial was tried the second time in federal court, I was in Salt Lake City, it was about 7:30 a.m., I had the television on because I was interested to see what the jury was going to do, and the U.S. Attorney was on, and the hostess of that particular television network -- it was like NBC or ABC -- said, Isn't this double jeopardy? These officers were tried in California by the state of California for beating Rodney King and were acquitted. Now they've been tried in federal court for virtually the same thing.

And the U.S. Attorney articulated it very well. He said, `No, it isn't double jeopardy. You see, California is a country, and the federal government is a country. And if you have citizenship in both countries, California and the federal government, then the one country, the republic of California, can try you. And the federal government can try you. And it is not double jeopardy.'

That was an excellent, I thought, revelation on -- because these officers all were federal citizens. They all had Social Security numbers, they had all acquiesced to the 14th Amendment, whether they knew it or not. So you may want to question people like Posse Comitatus and what they're saying, I think, accurately, is that black people did not have a way for citizenship before the Civil War and the 14th Amendment. After the 14th Amendment, black people and everyone else was offered federal citizenship, and almost everyone is a federal citizen today.



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